crap!!!!!!!!!! stupid site goofed up my quotes. reposting.

2 articulate spokespeople put their visions of what skinning is all about on the table in an argument on a third site called customize. here is a summary blow by blow in how i read it.

::shoggot::
there is no homogenous community. each site contains different pieces of it. but stardock is evil because it is commercializing it and pushing perfectly good free stuff into obscurity. it's lackey site, wincustomize serves as its front line and is nothing more but a portal to their stuff.

::
objects to that saying that all parts are equally valued and that wincustomize has put public criteria on what sections it has and has the top freeware programs already listed on wc. wc is also the place where more users of said freeware go to get skins than anywhere else. and why is it acceptable to you that websites get to make money off of skin authors work but skin authors and developers aren't allowed to make money off their work?

::shoggot::
only having the top apps is paying lip service. the guys who set up the sites are the most important because they decide what content is allowed. websites are just recouping bandwidth costs with their ads.

::
skin authors are more important to a websites success than moderators. people come for the skins.

::shoggot::
without the admins there is no site. we hope websites make money. custo's admins might drive away some skin authors with their attitude but only the ones not under stardock's wing. skinz doesn't have a financial stake in its app selection, wincusto does. so we can show the entire playing field.

QUOTE: WINCUSOTMIZE ISN'T A SKINNING COMMUNITY SITE. IT'S A STARDOCK SITE WHERE THE FAITHFUL DON'T HAVE TO DIRTY THEIR FEET ELSEWHERE. THEY CAN GET THEIR CHURCH FOOD DELIVERED RIGHT TO THEIR DOORS...

::
winCustomize gets over 700,000 unique people visiting per month. how can they all be stardock people? on 12-6-2001 custo's submissions were all either wallpaper or screenshots with 2 exceptions, a windowblinds skin and an icon package. both stardock apps.

::shoggot::
as for bringing sd into it, that's on me; and i stand by it. I felt is was worth noting that the majority of those decrying miriku's actions came from offsite, and had sd affiliation.'

summary: those who disagree with the terrible treatment of treetog are 'off site and sd affiliation'.

::
takes shoggots charge as a complement. if the people standing up for decency are seen by you and others as 'sd affiliated' then he'll take that as a complement.

::shoggot::
the defenders here are the same people on wincustomize's contact list.

::lightstream::
what does stardock have to do with this? off site? very interesting way of putting it. i'm defending my friends. i'm a volunteer.

::
my defense of pixtudio is based on principle. i have no stake in pixtudio. treetog is a respected contributing member of the community. he doesn't deserve to be treated badly.

::shoggot::
treetog shouldn't be treated any differently. rules should be applied equally.

::custo admin::
stardock kids, you run your site how you want, i'll run mine how i want.

::shoggot::
why is it whenever there's a bunch of angry people that it's always traced back to the sd/wc? i affiliate sd/wc with rampaging mobs.

::
notes that the 'rampaging mob' shoggot alludes to includes dangeruss, grimspoon, paxx, jafo, alexandrie, treetog, david.

also notes that it was shoggot who was the one who brought stardock up in the first place.

also notes that if he had behaved the way miriku had that the same 'rampaging mob' would say he was behaving poorly too. they don't have a double standard.

::custo admin::
"Wincust (fools are ripping off our name, at least wincustO dammit) are sell out bitches, and are too reppy for my taste"

::shoggot::
makes many points mainly that sites can do whatever they want.

also says stardock is evil but brad is 'good at heart'.

the sides in this debate interesting. the guys who make stuff like skins or software are on one side and the guys who don't are on the other.

The trouble with summarising is that things go out of context if you don't do it right. For those that want to see the full deal, read this: http://www.customize.org/forum/973 and while you're at it, this too: http://www.customize.org/forum/984

By the way, what's the point of this thread?

I read the latter one this afternoon. Shoggot's words are insulting and erroneous. I used to think Shoggot knew a lot about skinning software but he really shows that he's out of touch.

VDE was never freeware and DesktopX is not a derivative of it.

I don't think Shoggot runs any of these programs and hasn't in a long while.

Shoggot also shows an almost imperial attitude towards skin sites. Lots of people don't want to muck through 50 or 100 sections. I think the reason why WinCustomize is so popular is because it is so quick and easy to use. Shoggot likes to moderate wallpapers to keep the number under control. WC moderates the software listed.

I remember something about a Tek interview w/ Alberto where I think he touched on this subject...

from the interview...

Tek: How did you get involved with Stardock?

Alberto: They contacted me because they were interested into the VDE technology (that is: a way to build a custom object oriented desktop interface) and wanted to build a new and bigger application with that technology. That became DesktopX.

Tek: You told me that VDE wasn't a big success. Why did DesktopX become a success?

Alberto: DesktopX has nothing to do with VDE. But the very basic concept and the first implementation of the graphic engine came from VDE. The fantastic support of Stardock was also responsible for its success. They are really able to help growing a program in several directions: Concept, support, distribution. And the chance of working in a team. This is obviously another world from programming alone. DesktopX is simpler to use, more stable, has Stardock support and a lot more people use it.

Tek: In what way is VDE different from DesktopX?

Alberto: VDE was for the most part a tech demo. Infact it was very unstable, had limited features, didn't have any support and was too complicated to be really used by a big public. DesktopX takes VDE's basic concept of custom objects on your desktop, but let you combine them together with tons of new possibilities.

Depending on how your mind works you "Could" see Shog's vacuum theory here...

OR

you could see where Albert says DX has nothing to do w/ VDE

hehe

Or both. The brain still consists of two halves that work independently.

OR
"none" if you have not been around this crazy so called community long enough to know what in the hell is going on w/ that! hehe

Shoggot's view of reality is so different than mine that there's little common ground to even debate on.

I have always believed that deeds matter more than words. People follow actions, not intent. I think our disagreements on skinning are deeper than these surface issues. Our basic philosophical ideals are completely opposite. We'd have similar debates on politics as well I suspect.

Probably the only thing we do agree on is that there is no single "community". He's free to dislike or be "anti-Stardock". If the people who see capitalism as an evil force want to segregate themselves (afterall, it was shoggot's charge that the "stardock mob" are the ones who visit and participate on multiple sites) to individual sites more power to them.

You'll see me, Jafo, Dangeruss, Treetog, Alexandrie, Paxx, DavidK, and the rest of "the mob" hanging out, contributing, participating on all the sites. That is, what I think is the crux of it, we don't make distinctions between sites or software. It's all about fun.

I am thankful every day that I get to wake up and go do what I love to do and get paid for it as well. And I'm thankful that we make things that millions of people enjoy using. And I'm thankful to have good friends on the net who are thoughtful, kind, and giving to others.

As Jay said, the most telling thing in that "flame war" on Custo is that the sides were very distinct. You had the people who actually create software and skins on the one side and those who do not on the other. Since all of this is merely a philosophical debate really and sides are philosophical, I would rather be associated with the people who make things for other people.

there will always be this debate, nothing will change it...

cuz ppl will always want things for free, (Who would'nt!)
I suppose the dev guys from Themebar will be catching heat now that their app is no longer free, but they have worked long and hard at it...
and yet another thing to watch as it goes on to progress

I was one of them who liked it being free! but also totally understand why they decided to do this and they deserve it

anyone who wants to see free apps around still, needs to keep making them available for the ppl and not sell out to the bigger corporations it is that simple

Themebar's no longer free? Oh well... I was always surprised they were giving it away to begin with.

What happens to those of us who got it when it was free? Is the enw license retroactive?

me too FIrestorm I was surprised it was free and love it! the free build is still enough to keep most ppl happy...

the newer build has more features & the WebPanel gives more flex as far as skinning goes, plus it skins outlook express, but what I'm reading is most ppl are still content w/ the free version

Well I'm sure we'll somehow be blamed for that too.

Well Shoggot called me a "Troll" and asked me to "go away".

He didn't say this on HIS site. He wrote this on a competing site to his (customize.org).

On HIS site, Jafo, and me, and Alexandrie and Treetog and Grimspoon are amongst the most active message board users, creating 3 of the top 10 posts.

On his competitor's site (customize.org) he calls us a "rampaging mob".

On HIS site, flame wars are few and far between, civil behavior is the norm and expected. People treat each other with respect.

On his comeptitor's site, he creates a new thread applauding a junior admin for personally attacking 2 of the top skin authors of all time and encouraging Admin behavior that has cost customize.org some of the top skin authors in the community.